Talk:Arnett McMillan/@comment-27788729-20160523202720/@comment-28400905-20160530182413
@Eevee: What do you mean a 'side effect'? Also, even if its a side effect, that doesn't change that it happened, right? If a side effect of Kazuya's Freezing is that it makes Elly fall in love with him, that doesn't really change that it happened, does it? Maybe I should put it like this, I'd really like to know because I'm having a tough time understanding where you are coming from; if what happened isn't mind control, isn't involuntary then how does Elly literally saying and thinking to herself; 'I want to be Kazuya's obedient servant, Kazuya is my master, I want to offer up everything I have to Kazuya,' not translate into her placing higher value on serving Kazuya then on being with André? I don't really know, would you agree that if a boy and a girl were dating, and the girl considered some other stranger they both barely knew as her 'master' to who she wanted to 'offer up everything' and she was 'drawn' to this stranger and this stranger made her feel better, happier and more pleasure than her boyfriend ever did, that it'd be sad and probably a little depressing for the boyfriend? About Freezing, if its canonically defined as being those three things from above, hearts, conscience and the ultimate form of communication, even more intimate than Ereinbar Set, why do you say it doesn't reflect the true desires of the people? In your opinion then what does Elly's thoughts and feelings under Kazuya's Freezing represent? Why are they there and where are they coming from? I just don't understand, Freezing is explicitly a 'synchronization of hearts' why would Kazuya's Freezing with Elly be any different? I did say I could amend my sentence, do you agree then, instead, with my point that its a matter of what lies in their hearts and conscience is the desire to be Kazuya's obedient servants and leave everything to him? If its not voluntary isn't it mind control? Doesn't that explicitly mean that its against their free will cause its not voluntary? I'd be inclined to agree on this point with you except that Elly doesn't just feel good. If all that happened is, like in the anime, Elly felt physically good I'd believe what you're saying, but Elly also felt emotionally happy, content, more so than André's ever made her feel, and she also expressed a desire to leave everything to Kazuya and to submit to him completely. That's not just a physical sensation of feeling pleasure, that's way beyond into the most intimate of emotional levels. But Eevee the Freezing isn't an outside force. The definition for it says its a synchronization of hearts, it doesn't create feelings that aren't already there, it simply communicates existing feelings. If you say there's an outside force, what's your evidence for it? Also, this part, actually really makes me sad 'If Andre's Freezing was as powerful as Kazuya or if Andre had a Stigma Body, I'd completely imagine that Elly would feel the same'. Not because I'm upset or anything, sorry, but just because, personally, something that I really enjoy about lots of relationships, is the different and unique ways different people are happiest and feel best with other people. But now, in Freezing, no Pandora will ever feel as happy and content as she does with Kazuya. Its so sad to me that André can never do anything to make Elly want to be willing to trust him completely and leave everything to him, or make her feel as happy as Kazuya makes her feel. Its just...why? But yeah, I know we'll never get to see what André feels. I'm pretty sure we'll never even get to see André again. I see, I understand where your line is then, thank you. We'll see, in future chapters, if there is no effect outside of his Freezing, so I can't argue that now. But I do want to ask why feelings expressed by Elly under Kazuya's Freezing, in your opinion, aren't real? What disqualifies them from being real? We've agreed it wasn't mind control, so it wasn't like Elly was expressing something against her free will, or something she doesn't really feel. I mean if someone cheats on my, while they're drunk, that doesn't mean that they didn't mean to cheat on me, right? I mean being drunk isn't an excuse for cheating is it? My head's spinning a little. Um, look, are you saying that what happened to Elly is just like her getting real horny? Cause, um, if my partner, the moment they got really horny, started talking to some stranger about how they want to be his obedient servant and offer everything up to him, I'd be pretty depressed and feel very hurt and betrayed. I mean just getting horny doesn't change who you are, so that means those things you've expressed are what your really meant and felt. I really just wish that those things they'd expressed had been against their free will. But if Elly was just drunk, and then said those things, then that is kind of horrible since that means just getting intoxicated is all it takes for her to what to offer up everything she has to someone she barely knows. As for what I truly believe, although I really hate to have to type this because it feels like putting in the final nail of a coffin...yeah...I kind of have to accept that that is what Elly really wants. That sucks. Eevee, honestly, answer me this question; if I have a spouse and that spouse meets a stranger, a stranger who then makes her feel horny and then she starts telling him she wants to offer up everything she has to him, that he makes her feel happier than she's ever been, that she wants to just leave everything to him and be his obedient servant...how would I feel? I mean horniness doesn't mean she's lost her free will. Wouldn't that really hurt and belittle? If you can please answer this question because I feel really lost and I think this is a good place for me to start. If you say it's 'nonsense' for Elly to want to bow down to Kazuya then why does she herself say that she 'wants to be Kazuya's obedient servant'? If its not mind control then that means that she, Elly, of her own free will wants to be Kazuya's obedient servant, doesn't it? But if Su-Na is exposed to Kazuya's Freezing, which isn't mind control, she'll of her own free will say that she wants to be Kazuya's servant and offer herself up to him so...I mean if its of her free will that she says that, then how can it possibly not be true? When you say this 'If Elly or the other Pandora want to bang Kazuya following this experience then so be it' does that mean you're agreeing. Sorry I truly am just not sure what you mean exactly and I don't want to say something stupid because I misinterpreted you so I just wanted to clarify, sorry. Okay, calming myself down, so if we've established that Elly, without being mind controlled and of her own free will, wanted to be Kazuya's obedient servant, offer everything up to him and feels happier and more pleasure with him then she ever does with André (I think this much we have agreed on, correct me if I'm wrong again though) what are the questions you think I should be asking? I just seriously imagine if someone dies something like this to Satellizer in front of Kazuya. How would people react? What if Satellizer, of her own free will, said this stuff about some other Limiter when he uses Freezing on her. Sorry I shouldn't repeat this I'm just so sad. At least can you understand, that if like me you're someone who liked Elly/André, that the fact that the last thing I've seen of André speaking is him calling out futilely to Elly whilst she's gushing about how much she wants to be Kazuya's servant, is really depressing? Particularly since, like you said, I'll probably never get to see him again even. Oh gosh I keep leaving the last bits of your quotes in when I forget to backspace. Ugh, I'm such a loser.